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Advice on snowshoes?

General Topics about Hiking in the Catskill Mountains that are not trail related
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kennykb
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Advice on snowshoes?

Unread post by kennykb »

I'm posting this as a guy who's returning to hiking after too many years away. I've done a few of the 35ers since I've come back, including Balsam and Slide in 'winter' - but neither one needed more than microspikes on the days I did them. (In fact, I could have done Balsam barebooted - my daughter did - but I felt more secure on spikes.) So anyway, I'd like to ask people with more experience than I have with modern equipment a few questions about choice of gear. (You surely don't want to know what I was using in the '70s!) In particular, I'd like to hear from the guys with local experience - my technical winter hiking in the past was in other places, other conditions.

Am I right that the conditions in the Cats are most often semi-compacted or wet snow, and hence that shoes smaller than what the catalogues recommend for someone's weight often work well? I'm thinking maybe of the MSR models with the tails. I'm a pretty big guy, so with a pack I'm a little above the recommend weight range for 24-inch shoes, but well within the range for the MSR ones with the tails on. With Tubbs or Atlas, I probably need to go with a 30-inch for safety in powder. I like the idea of being able to trade flotation for manoeuvrability.

Also, besides "about 40 bucks," what's the difference between MSR's "Lightning Axis" and "Lightning Ascent" models? It looks as if they both have heel lifts, lateral crampons, and about the same flotation. I sort of like the idea of the Axis adjustment for toe-in and toe-out, is that just a gimmick or does it actually work?

Am I right that 12-point steel crampons are a must? It seems as if hard ice on that conglomerate rock would eat aluminium ones, and a lot of the trails look too steep for 10-point to be really secure.

Do I need an ice axe if I use poles? On the few peaks I've done so far, I haven't seen anywhere that I'd both need to and be able to self-arrest. Everything seems either to have enough vegetation to stop a slide, or else is a steep enough drop-off that a slide would inevitably become a fall. I'm comfortable with taking the basket off a pole and using it for self belay when walking a side-hill. I've never done technical ice climbing and don't plan to start at my age.

Are full-leather boots with a liberal application of beeswax OK? Or are hard-shell mountaineering boots or GI mickey mouse boots essential? (I wear thin liner socks, doubled plastic bags, and heavy wool socks in the winter, so I have a vapour barrier. I wear gaiters if I'm expecting snow, mud, or brambles, which is essentially always in the Catskills.)

OK, time to start flaming me for cluelessness. Just be sure to include solid advice among the flames!
I'm not lost. I know exactly where I am. I'm right here.
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Sam
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Re: Advice on snowshoes?

Unread post by Sam »

Hey Kenny,

I'm new to snow shoeing not that it requires time to be truly mastered, but everyone whom I've hiked with on snow shoes has for the most part been wearing the MSR EVO Ascents. As you mentioned they're versatile with the removable tail and have great traction (serrated edges as well as a crampon below the ball of your foot). I used them while climbing Friday/Balsam Cap and Graham/Balsam Lake Mountain and plan to wear them tomorrow, while climbing Peekamoose/Table. They're very light and hardly feel as though they are attached to your feet! Highly recommend them to you and anyone else reading this for that matter.

Heavy duty plastic mountaineering boots are not necessary and would "get you flamed" on the trail ;). A waterproof boot is a must for most people unless you've got a method of your own, like the plastic-bag-lining. Some like an insulated boot, while others just like a solid 3 season hiking boot with a vibram sole and goretex. There are a ton of options out there.

Gaiters are the name of the game and with that there are many different styles available. Some folks like to use the low profile ones that just cover the entirety of the boot, while others like myself prefer the style that straps on to your leg and clips into the toe of your boot.

Hiking in the winter is even more subjective than in season, so a day or two out in the present winter conditions will provide you with a nice environment for trail/error. How many layers do you need? What works best? How long are the breaks that I take? Should I remove the gloves this break, or try to leave them on? And the like.

But back to your primary question; the MSR EVO Ascents are great and I highly recommend them, as well as the tails for that model.

-Sam
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kennykb
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Re: Advice on snowshoes?

Unread post by kennykb »

Thanks, for the advice, Sam!

I agree with the gaiters - as I said, I already wear them - and with the waterproof boot. The plastic bags aren't about waterproofing the boot, they're about not getting my socks soaked from the inside, because my feet sweat. They go between the liners and the wool socks. In the winter I use pretty heavy work boots, about the only concession to weight is that they have titanium toes rather than steel. With lots of beeswax they're decently waterproof.

I've got a pretty good idea what I need in the way of clothing and hiking style - I've done winter hiking before. While it was a long time ago, let's face it, long johns just haven't changed that much, and a fleece isn't that different from the heavy wool sweater I used to wear. But when I hiked in winter before, snowshoes didn't look anything like modern ones, crampons came in about two varieties (10- and 12-point, both steel) and microspikes hadn't been invented. So I'm still getting oriented to modern gear.

So, for that matter, any thoughts on what's needed in the way of crampons? Is an ice axe necessary for general hiking, or are poles adequate?
I'm not lost. I know exactly where I am. I'm right here.
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mike
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Re: Advice on snowshoes?

Unread post by mike »

I first started to hike in the 60's. I did a lot of winter hiking in the 70's. Some of the gear from the 70's is viable. I still have a pair of Sherpa (now Tubbs) snow shoes. I still use them. They were of better quality then the snowshoes of today. Today's snowshoes are designed to be easy and cheap to manufacture. They don't last as long as snowshoes of the past. To me, reliability is the most important quality. Get stuck out in the bitter cold with high winds can be scary. If you snowshoes breaks, you could die.

The 3 major mfg of snowshoes all have good features. But, durability of the past is missing. MSR are known for their light weight and good grip. But, they had a problem with the bindings breaking. Mainly with heavier hikers. It is alleged that they have fixed the problems with the bindings breaking. Tubbs are also good. Some models have great cramp-ons on the bottom. Atlas are more durable, but they are heavier. In most cases I use 25" shoes. I use larger shoes with new snow. with 6-12" of new snow 30" shoes work well. With 24"+ of new snow 36" shoes are desirable.

Today there are two classes of snowshoes. The "classic" models have metal frames. Personally, I like the ones with metal frames. To me they seem more durable. The "newer" models are plastic. They are lighter and grip well. My wife has a pair, and she likes them a lot. There have been a small number of reports of breakage.

The bindings on all 3 mfg suck. They are all too difficult to put on. In 2010 Seth Lyon was in a blizzard on top of Blackhead. When the blizzard calmed down a bit, he climbed out of his snow hole and tried to put his snowshoes on. He couldn't get them on. Being severely hypothermic, he walked off and died. I contribute this factor to his death. There were other contributors, but it played a role.

I don't use Cramp-on in the Catskills. Micro-spikes are good enough. Many snowshoes have great cramp-ons on the bottom, so cramp-ons are rarely needed. Last winter there was so much ice, so there were times where cramp-ons would have been helpful. I don't use an ice ax either. Climbing the Indianhead Mtn range might be helpful with them.

As for wool. I used it for years. It works as good as the polyester fleece we use today. Wool has better thermal properties. But, it makes you sweat more. It is important to not sweat while winter hiking. I no longer wear wool. I have switched to polyester (fleece). But, if it is really cold, I will still use a wool sweater.

I now use Thorlo socks. They are much softer so I don't need a liner sock. I use the Winter ones. They seem to wick better then wool. You might want to try a pair.

Good boots that are waterproof will work. Older leather boots work just fine. Just use Sno Seal or other bees wax. If they leak, don't use them. If you are going to buy a new pair find a pair that fit your feet well. Fit is the most important factor. Remember that your feet shrink about 1/2 to a full size in the winter because your feet are colder. Always make sure that your feet do NOT touch the end of the boot. I usually buy a pair that are 1/2 to a full size larger.

I use OR Gaiters. I use the full length ones. Some like the shorter ones. They do a lot to help keep snow and water out of your boots. I have seen people hike in Keen's with gaiters with a good success.

Wearing layers of clothing is important. When you Winter hike you want to be slightly cool, but not sweating. There have been times when I have hiked in a light shirt without gloves. I usually hike with snow pants, or something fairly waterproof. They don't need a lot of insulation. But, they should protect you from the wind. I wear a light polyester shirt. I also wear a fleece jacket. If it is windy or snowing I wear a shell to block the wind. I wear fleece gloves or leather gloves. If it is really cold, I wear insulated gloves. I also have a hat, which I usually remove once I warm up. I add or remove clothing until I am slightly cool. You can also adjust your speed to adjust your heat level. The amount of wind and sun has a lot to do with how cold you are. Every person has a different "heat level". Some people are hot when they hike. Others are cold all the time. Adjust your clothing to match the correct level. In the winter I always carry extra clothing in case the wind picks up or a cold front comes in. I am always ready to handle any conditions that comes up. In the summer, hikers are always looking to reduce their weight. In the winter, hikers should worry about weight as much as survival. Staying warm is important.

You didn't mention water. Hydration is important. Freezing water is also a problem. It is strange that you are surround by water, but can't get to it.

Now that my knee is feeling better, we are planning a bunch of winter hikes. You are welcome to join us. We also hike with Alan for his YMCA hikes. These hikes are good to learn about different winter tips. Feel free to ask more questions.
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kennykb
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Re: Advice on snowshoes?

Unread post by kennykb »

You still don't want to think about the gear I used in the 70's. I couldn't afford high-end stuff when I was a college kid. I used an uncle's cast-offs, mostly. Unspeakable. ;)

I still need to work more on the wife before I go out and get snowshoes. (A happy wife is a happy life.)

The question about crampons was because both ADK and Catskill 3500 Club say that crampons - not instep crampons or spikes - are required for their organized winter hikes. (And ADK says they have to be steel, not aluminium.) It's nice to hear contrary opinions from someone with - literally - boots on the ground.

Roger on dressing in layers and carrying enough water. I usually wear polypro long johns and long-sleeve T, fleece sweater and lounge pants, nylon hiking pants and goretex wind jacket, balaclava or tuque. Liner socks, plastic bags, wool socks, well-worn clunky leather boots, calf-high gaiters. Gloves. Puffy layer in the pack. I most often go without goggles because with them, my glasses fog up. For day trips in cold weather I use wide mouth bottles, fill them with hot water, put spare socks on them, and put them in the pack upside down.

I use spikes and poles even when I'm walking to work in slushy or icy weather. Gets me some strange looks, but that's better than falling on my arse.

Even on day trips I occasionally bring a stove and pot. Nothing to lift the spirits like a hot lunch, and it will let me melt snow if I must.
I'm not lost. I know exactly where I am. I'm right here.
mtnclimber
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Re: Advice on snowshoes?

Unread post by mtnclimber »

Most of the newer snow shoes have cramp-ons built into the bottom. My feeling is that if you need cramp-ons then it probably is too dangerous. I think the hiking org are concerned about liability. Mike has a bunch of snow shoes. maybe you can try out a pair before buying them. I don't think I have ever used cramp-ons in the Catskill Mtns.

Micro-spikes alone are not a substitute for crampons. But, good for hard packed snow or an icy trail. Not so good for steep climbs.
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mike
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Re: Advice on snowshoes?

Unread post by mike »

My opinion is that if you need crampons you also need a rope and harness. Last year, a Hunter Mtn Employee fell and slid 200' to his death. Another hiker fell down the North Access of KHP. He broke an ankle.

I have been in conditions where crampons would be better. But usually it was so dangerous that a rope would also be important.

Hard pack is quite different then ice covered hard pack.

My general opinion is that good quality snowshoes with good crampons on the bottom is what you need 99% of the time in the Catskill.

Obviously, this is my opinion.
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Jon
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Re: Advice on snowshoes?

Unread post by Jon »

I bring both full crampons and snowshoes.

The only advice for snowshoes that I can give is to get mountain climbing ones. I have some that are more for flat-land hiking, they are Redfeathers. They do great when going downhill because they have large tails for gliding down snow. However getting up hills with them is a challenge since they don't have enough crampon on the bottom. I have gotten a pair of those MSR plastic ones, and although I haven't used them yet, every-time I go hiking I have loaned them to people. These people have also had a much easier time making ascents than I have, since they have two tracks of crampon running down the bottom. The plastic ones are sort of loud though, it seems to magnify the crunch crunch of walking in snow.

Bindings are also important, find ones that you can tighten or loosen with a gloved hand. I think this is important since most of the time they will get caked with snow and you won't want to take your glove off all the time in order to tighten them up, or to loosen them and take them off. If you go to an outdoor shop to buy put a pair of gloves on and try manipulating them with the gloves.

I will disagree with the whole "need a rope for crampons" thing. They are different tools for different situations. Crampons are needed when you want to get grip in ice/snow but don't need the full "flotation" of a snowshoe. They're like micro-spikes only more useful. I could counter and say that any situation where you would wear micro-spikes you should need to rope up. Since any situation where you would be wearing micro-spikes I will be wearing crampons. I just decided to buy a piece of gear which serves the same purpose as micro-spikes, however can be used in situations beyond that. If you feel safer with micro-spikes then you can get them. If you plan on doing mountaineering above and beyond the Catskills, then don't waste money on micro-spikes since their use will fall short on larger mountains. Another thing crampons help out on narrow sections of trail, or when you have to climb rocks in the winter. Despite Mike's opinion, I don't think you would need to rope up for a 3 foot climb up a rock, however crampons will make this ascent much easier than micro-spikes, and snowshoes are too wide and don't have the right crampon to climb up rocks.

I find in NJ that I use the crampons more than I use snowshoes. We don't always have enough snow down here to warrant use of snowshoes, but all of our summits are bare rock and get covered in ice for most of the winter. Micro-spikes would work I guess, but yet again, it's just redundant gear. I strap on the crampons and have no problems, and am not in any "dangerous" situation where I would need to rope up, it's just flat bare rock with ice on it.
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kennykb
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Re: Advice on snowshoes?

Unread post by kennykb »

Ask two hikers, get three opinions. :?

I wonder if it tilts the scales any that I already have microspikes and use them occasionally even for my daily commute? (Using crampons on an asphalt bike trail with patches of ice would, I imagine, be very bad for both the crampon and the asphalt!) I'm not planning at the moment to do anything like shinnying up the Cornell Crack when it's iced over.

I've managed Curtiss-Ormsbee and McKinley Hollow on spikes in icy conditions without feeling terribly unsafe. I'm guessing that I'm a long way from attempting anything steeper than McKinley in winter. My skills aren't up to it, to say nothing of my equipment.

At least, everyone seems to agree that the current generation of MSR snowshoes (with lateral crampons and heel lifts) are the ones to get. Good to know.
I'm not lost. I know exactly where I am. I'm right here.
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mike
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Re: Advice on snowshoes?

Unread post by mike »

Ask two hikers, get three opinions.
SO TRUE!

Different ways of doing things is okay. Whatever works for you is good. For me, as soon as it snows, my snowshoes go on and don't come off until Spring. But, some people like to bare boot on hard snow. I use my microspikes in early Winter and late Winter. Exceptions are solid ice. My snowshoes are Tubbs Couloirs (now Mountaineers). They have very large and aggressive crampons on the bottom. The only time I use crampons is when I do steep climbs on pure ice. I understand Jon's point of view, and his way works for a certain group of hikers. But, everyone has a different way that works for them. It's a personal thing. It's good that people can some multiple ways of doing something.

MSR snowshoes are lighter in weight, but more prone to breaking. Especially with heavier hikers. Tubbs can take more abuse, but wear you out faster. Atlas have the best bindings. Any choice of these 3 brands will work well. MSR have become popular because they are lighter in weight. It depends upon how powerful your legs are.
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